Tristan’s Drones in Eve, part one of many

•May 18, 2014 • Leave a Comment

So as I mentioned, I’m trying Eve online again. Way back in the early days of this blog I did a little bit of theory crafting. I decided I’d do it again for this my current interest.

Now before I begin, some old caveats. First, I’m doing this for my learning. So if you’re reading and you see I made a mistake by all means tell me. On the other hand if it’s “you noob” or “drones suck” you’re welcome to go away. Second, again due to me starting on this I’m probably going to do an update later with new lessons learned. Finally, this is almost purely “nominal target”. The enemy, especially a human PVP enemy, will do things to pull out of optimal. But if I’ve got a baseline I can start guessing what I need to deal with the new surprises.

I’m playing with a Tristan. That’s a frigate (smallest player ship for you non-EVE players). Its designed primary weapon system is drones with two turrets for supplemental weapons. Drones are pets. They can be – and in Eve actually are – pretty decent. But because they’re autonomous and driven by the AI they’re dumb. And they’re easier to kill than your ship. And they’re rather restricted in the damage that they can do. But a pack of them can be very worrisome. My goal here is to see how worrisome they are at base, and how much more so I can make them be.

Before I get to that let me point out the benefits the Tristan has for drone combat. First, it’s got enough magazine space for 8 lights or 4 mediums, though the lights are restricted by my ability to control a maximum of 5 drones (after training). I can also squeeze in a heavy or a sentry drone at the cost of 8 lights or 2.5 (well, 3) mediums. Lights are fast, both in base speed and tracking speed, and have the tightest signature resolution. On the other hand they have the smallest damage. Sentries move zero, track like slugs, have large signature resolutions, but have lots and lots of range and damage.

At first pass, then, it’s time for a raw damage comparison. For simplicity I’m ignoring “damage modification” for now. So base damage for a light is 15, for a medium is 25, a heavy has 48, and a sentry has 50. 5 lights base is 75. 4 mediums base is 100. If I toss a heavy or a sentry I can add three lights but even so that’s less than the four heavies. For this (and some other reasons I’m not going into right now) I am dropping the heavies and lights. I think there are situations where they’ll come into play, but not as a relative beginner.

On first pass, then, it’s “obvious” I should use four mediums. But there’s a problem. It’s not just the damage I can do if I hit, it’s hitting to do the damage. That’s where that signature resolution comes into play. Actually, let me take a moment to discuss the whole to-hit formula.

First, it’s derived, not displayed from CCP. That means that so far empirical results match it but it might be slightly wrong, and it might get changed a little bit if CCP deems it necessary. There are also some ‘levelers’ in the program that prevent strings of good (or bad) luck. We’ll ignore those for now.

Base formula simplified is: 0.5 ^ (((signature equation)*(tracking equation))^2 + (range equation)^2).

Signature equation. In simple, smaller ‘bore’ weapons have better accuracy. It’s not right, really, but let’s rephrase that as smaller ‘bore’ weapons have tighter shot groups. The bigger the target the less this matters. And in fact (still keeping this analogy because it’s working) the whole ‘signature resolution’ and ‘signature radius’ discussion can be thought of as ‘shot group size’ and ‘target size.’ If Res is smaller than Rad then obviously it’s going to hit – if everything else cooperates. However we don’t cap this at 1 (100%) because it gets multiplied by the next element, the tracking equation. On the other hand it’s never going to be zero – every target has at least a little radius.

Tracking equation. This gets a little trickier though it’s conceptually simple – it’s ‘how well are you aiming at that moving target’. A target that’s standing still – or is approaching or moving away in a straight line – is essentially stationary. One that’s in a circular orbit is a lot harder. How much harder depends on how many degrees (well, radians really) it moves per second. This is a matter of its range and actual speed.

You can ‘get’ this by simple math without going into trigonometry. Remember that a circumference is pi*diameter, and diameter is 2*radius. Now let’s set a pair of orbits, one 5 units out and one 10 units out. The first orbit is 30.14… units in ‘length’ (circumference), the second is 60.28… units. A ship moving at the same speed takes twice as long to get around the ship when it’s further away.

Now not only does the target move around the ship but the turrets have a limit on how fast they can move. This is their tracking (aka tracking speed). Obviously if the turret can rotate faster than the effective transversal speed then it’s easy to hit, but if the transversal is faster it’s a lot harder.

That’s the tracking equation. Transversal velocity (how fast is it moving from left to right, ignoring speed in or out) divided by the range times the tracking speed. It’s possible for this to be zero, but that’s almost totally under the control of the target.

Finally there’s the range equation. Yes, I know we already used range once but this is something else. Analogy first. Up to a certain range everything flies straight. Once it’s past that range, however, it can start veering a little off target. Here’s the way it works.

All weapons have an optimal and a falloff range. Optimal range is the “up to this range”. Falloff is where things start missing, and the way the formula works the formula winds up with a 50% hit probability at optimal plus falloff. How?

(Actual range – optimal range)/falloff range, limit 0. Limit 0 so no negatives can sneak in. From point blank to optimal range the number is 0, and 0.5 (the base number) to the 0th power is 1 or 100%. At falloff range the number is 1, or 0.5^1 = 0.5 (50%).

The tracking and signature equations are multiplied together and squared, and this is added to the square of the range equation. The squaring among other things cuts out the corner cases that might give a negative number. And since we’re adding two things together, if both sets give us “1” then we’ve got a 50% chance to hit.

Remember why I went to the gunnery equation? To show why the mediums weren’t an easy preference over the lights. There are two Big Deals. First, there’s the respective signature resolutions. Lights are 25. Mediums are 125. In general, frigates (like the Tristan) have signature radiuses (radii?) of 30-50, with some of the specialized ducks running 60, 65, or even 90.

The signature equation for lights against frigates, then, is less than 1. For mediums it’s 3 or even 4. 0.5^(25/30) is still 56% chance of hitting. 0.5^3, however, is 12.5, or about four and a half times worse. And 25 base medium damage is not four and a half times greater than 15 from a light.

That’s a lot of words but it gives us the base information we need for theory crunching. I’ll stop here and run some more in a bit.

In the meantime, have fun.


Eve online, pondering painting

•May 13, 2014 • Leave a Comment

Over in Eve Online, they’re experimenting with alternate color patterns for ships.

Now I think this is a good idea. I’ve lamented how they have a LOT of character customization that nobody sees, but in the main play area everyone looks the same except for a profile next to the chat message.

But while it’s a good idea CCP is doing a couple of things wrong. Well, one isn’t necessarily wrong in principle, but…

They’re dipping their toe in the water – in principle a good thing – but because they’ve set the prices of the alternate patterns so high they can’t really tell if the water’s fine or not. I’m sorry, I can’t stretch that analogy any further (well i could but it’d get surreal).

So anyway, they’ve only got a handful of ships on which these changes can be made, they’re appearance only, and they cost a LOT.

1) Make them cheap, but (as with all things EVE) make them per-ship. And make them available for all the ships.
2) Down the road, make a ‘tint your own’ that marks highlights. Combine this with more alternate base patterns for the ships. Still a fixed pallette, though, of not more than half a dozen bases and a dozen or so highlights.
3) Really down the road, go nuts.

3a) By go nuts I mean right back to character creation. At the same time you’re picking your race and colors and build and complexion and costume and profile background, add an ‘identifying icon’. Add a shield or rondel or even a small set of geometric shapes and let the players apply either a pre-designed pattern or paint one of their own. Paint with a large if not full spectrum of colors. And every ship they own gets this icon added to it for absolutely free. It sits in a common location – two to five of them, so regardless of angle you have a chance of seeing who’s ship it is.

3b) Oh, I’m not stopping there. See, I want to be able to change those icons down the road. Doing that would cost a chunk for the redesign because it’s going on every ship without extra effort or cost. But I want to be able to buy and sell the designs. There are artists among the players who could start getting good ISK for this.

3c) Not done yet. Corporations get their icons, too. Logos if you will, things that say “this is a Goon ship” or “Pandemic Legion member”.

3d) personal, corporate, or both – allow individual paint schemes. These, like the schemes of 1 and 2, are a per-ship cost. Because they’re effort intensive they should cost more than a standard or even common variation.

So what are the downside?
Biggest, bar none, is the programmer headache. Second biggest is probably the server load, though there are a few graphic sharing tricks that would help. Third is an adminnistrative headache watching for infringement of copyright/trademark and offensive/obscene artwork. That last is, well, “is it porn or art?”

On the other hand, it’s a massive draw. It’s a personal involvement in not only the character but the ships being flown. And it’s (probably) an ISK sink, a trade opportunity, and an alternate form of competition in a game filled with competitions – sorry, combats.

Just a thought.

Have fun.

Eve trial yet again

•May 10, 2014 • Leave a Comment

So I’ve started another trial. I decided this time I’d do it looking for why, exactly, I keep deciding not to stay.

Interestingly it appears CCP is looking at that question as well in more general terms. So here are my first comments, and I figure I’ll have more later.

First big disappointment deals with character creation. CCP has had one of the better character appearance generators around for a long time. You can spend a LOT of time getting the position of everything just right, setting up for your profile picture, choosing from several pieces of clothing – it’s great.

And it means nothing. It means that you see your character in the base bays, and if they go into captain’s quarters and do nothing but putter around you can see a bit more. But they just walk, and never interact or change clothes or, bleah. The more invested you get the more let down you get to be.

But you get over that, sorta. Because the game is space and spaceships and supporting space ships. So you log on to a tutorial which leads you to more tutorials. And you get lots of gear and lots of money and lots of ships.

But you wind up spending 40 hours or so of play between the career tutorials and the first mission (Sisters of Eve) and you’re just… bored. Because they have massive overlap. They have to because while there are five career tutorials many people will only do a couple – and there are some critical elements that should be passed along regardless.

40 hours of play of which 20 or so is repetitive. And it’s an MMO but with one exception it’s almost all ‘barrens chat’. A designated channel called Rookie Chat filled almost entirely with people asking how to do something – over and over and over. Pop to another channel and see insults and boasts and such.

it’s a problem in all MMOs – you want the players to have the basics but the real pleasure is interacting with others. At the same time EVE prides itself on letting people be almost as bad as they want to be – and many are.

I’m going to try some different things this trial, see if I can see a break point. But the design for the typical newbie is, well, allegedly half the players leave in the first month, and of the half that stays most just follow the PVE pipe that doesn’t really do much – and leave a few months down the road after the same old same old.

More later.

A reference sheet

•May 5, 2014 • Leave a Comment

We’re going to start the pathfinder game pretty soon. One of the players is very new and so can get confused without simple guides to keep things straight. So I made this combat reference chart. Version 1.
Pathfinder Combat chart

Pondering a fix in Eve

•April 28, 2014 • Leave a Comment

About a week ago, Ripard Teg (aka Jester) of Jester’s Trek wrote a post about an EVE Online maybe-problem that I’ve been thinking about for a while. My recommended solution also impacts another EVE Online problem. I recommend bumping be changed to ramming.

So non-EVE players reading understand, bumping is ramming, but Eve Online currently makes it a zero-damage action. It imparts changes to momentum but causes no damage.

The problem is ‘how do you stop bumpers?’

To sum the post, he went through the general recommendations for ‘how do you stop’ an annoyance group. What the group does is use a system technicality to attack other players in high-sec without invoking a PVP flag. (high security, the place where if you start non-consensual PVP the game’s police force assists the victim by attacking you). Some of these folk are botters or AFK players (in other words, not so much playing as setting the computer to a task and doing something else while it works) while others are people who just refuse to pay for ‘protection’ permit. (Yes, the classic scam. ‘Be a shame if something were to interfere with your ability to mine here, wouldn’t it? If you’ll pay this small fee for protection I’ll make certain you’re left alone.’)

To be fair it’s within the concept of EVE online’s whole PVP driven gameview, and the ranking Ripard gives all the suggestions reflect this. That’s why everything’s just ‘leave me alone’. That said I have a recommended solution.

As I said up top, the technicality is that ramming causes no damage, so they ‘bump’ the ship. While ramming causes no damage, it changes each ships’ momentum. Stationary ships get moved, moving ships get a slight change to vector. Speed and mass still matter a bit but it’s not physics ‘right’ even with the damage removed.

Generally the ships being bumped are mining. Mining is a long-duration activity that consists of ‘sit here and run the mining sequence.’ For best efficiency the miner sits in range of several asteroids and as he empties one he shifts the tools to the next that’s in range. As I said it’s conducive to botters and AFK play. But when the ship gets bumped out of range of the asteroid the player’s mining systems stop. The controller (player or bot) has to get back in range of the asteroids and start the miners again. A bumper can keep nudging the miner to delay this – and gets no aggravation penalty at all, because if the miner shoots at the bumper it’s the miner who gets to deal with Concord. And concord ships are not quite God Ships – but they’ll destroy player ships quickly enough.

My suggestion, which I’ve not seen, is to change bumping to ramming. See, the bumpers are being care-bear players too and taking advantage of the fact they’re (mostly) safe from damage. My suggestion is that ramming should be changed to cause damage, which since it causes damage invokes a PVP situation which in turn could trigger a CONCORD response.

There are two large issues to consider. The easiest to describe is dealing with bumping that happens where no frustration is intended. When you start cramming a bunch of ships into local space of a station as they are coming in and going out – say at one of the big market sites – then error and stupidity and greed make collisions inevitable. The other – which frankly makes the former so significant – is ensuring CONCORD response goes only against the aggressor.

And after some thought I’ve got a fairly simple test for aggression flagging. General case: the faster vessel is the one that gets flagged. Not potentially faster, actual speed. If the speed demon is standing still and the freighter runs into him it’s the freighter that gets flagged. To reduce abusing the mechanism in reverse (parking directly in front of the target and letting him ram you), if both vessels are under 41 m/s then neither is flagged. (This should be low enough that cruisers can’t easily bump miners out of range. It may need tweaked downward a bit.) To reduce problems in congested bases undock immunity should apply to impact. (If a launching freighter runs into a loitering frigate the freighter shouldn’t get flagged.)

The other issue is the damage calculation. In the “real world” if I run a small frigate at really high speeds into a capital ship it could potentially be mutually destructive. Personally I like this as it cuts into the tendency toward giantism currently infesting Eve Online. I figure CCP would reduce the game damage from ‘real’ levels, but I’d still like to see it have an effect. This means that X small ships moving fast enough can destroy a Titan. It forces a significant change in fleet tactics and compositions. It’s not just frigates, the cost/effect balance may make it worthwhile to use cruisers or even larger ships in some cases. As I said at first walk I like it, but it may cause enough player screaming that CCP can’t use it.

And yet it’s a move that has an impact on two perceived problems. So I put it out for consideration.

If’n I had a space game

•April 1, 2014 • Leave a Comment

For a while I thought Eve Online was going to be my space game of choice. And it may still turn out to be so. But not right now. And no, it’s not due to the ‘sociopath generator’ structure.

See, Eve Online is a great space game. And they’ve made a decent first-person shooter that’s nominally integrated. (Dust 514). And they tried, separately, to make it possible to ‘walk in stations’. To walk through the corridors and interact with bars and control rooms.

So your capsuleer (I’ll get to that) could fly into station with a troop carrier, then lead an assault to capture the station, after which he could drop by the bar… you get the idea.

Now there’s a conceit in Eve Online that works really well. See, your player is a “capsuleer”. He (or she, using old-style generic here) is one of the tiny number of individuals who can accept being augmented. In EO itself this allows you to fly the ship. Notionally it’s full of crew obeying your commands and doing maintenance and, well, all of that. Functionally it allows you to ‘fly the ship’ by yourself. There are a couple of bonuses to this ability of yours that the unseen NPCs do not have. You have access to clones. If you die in combat or other stupidity, your clone awakens. You lost any hardware you had with the original ‘you’, but ‘you’ are active. And yes, the game lets you set up distant clones so you can ‘switch’ from body to body. Yes, somehow you can do this even faster than the universe allows FTL to travel. “Because magic” and “because fun” and let it go at that.

Dust 514 follows the same conceit except you can also insert into battlesuits. Well, infantry and vehicle ‘suits’. Same principle as the ships whether frigate or titan, once you have all the basic skills you can run it, but there’s basic and then there’s raising the skills to higher levels.

Now the reason this came up in my mind again is that I was reading Sugar Kyle’s blog and caught her article of dealing with abandoned player owned stations. See, long-term structures like stations stay in game even if you log off. And as long as you’re fueling them every few days (30 days for these in particular) they’re pretty tough and keep running your mining or processing or whatever you set them up to do so you didn’t have to stay logged on 24/7. But players get bored or whatever and these stations get abandoned.

Right now the only way to get rid of them is to shoot them. I said tough. It takes a small group of ships a couple of days of constant shooting. It takes a small fleet a bit less time. In the meantime they’re nuisances and potential threats – with the exact details depending on where its located.

Now what some players want is the ability to capture the ship. See, if you abandon a ship somewhere (not by logging out, but there are ways and necessities) and I fly up to it, I can jump out of my ship and into yours and now it’s mine. (And my previous is an abandoned ship just sitting there for someone to capture. Or for me to put in my hold if the sizes are right.) They don’t really want it to be as easy as jumping in, but they want to be able to capture it. The suggestions are using various existing tools.

And I flashed on my “I want”. Jump in with my assault team, clear the automated defenses on the way to the control station, possibly hack my way through self-destruct timers, and capture the base – or die trying (and end up in my clone a few star systems away).

Not going to happen, but it was a bit of a dream.

A little Eve

•April 1, 2014 • Leave a Comment

There was a small furor over in Eve Online. Now that it’s (mostly) settled I will put in my two cents.

Good for CCP.

Here’s the deal. Eve Online’s got a somewhat deserved reputation for being a sociopath generator. Scams by players are (for the most part) legitimate. If I con you out of giving me access to your corporation bank account, you have no recourse if I then empty it. Needless to say there are a lot of scams, many targeting ignorance and greed. And when someone is targeted they get a mix of ridicule and commiseration – how much of each depending on who is on and who did it and a host of secondary issues.


This fellow, goes by the game name of “Erotic 1”, used a fairly classic scam. The worm is to offer to double (or more) a chunk of money (ISK in Eve Online).

The scam works this way. That first offer is legit. When that worm is taken he offers to do it again, only this time to even more of the player’s wealth. Eventually the con’s offering to double the sucker’s entire account holdings, and that’s where the hook plays. Con gets the player’s stuff, and then keeps it. Or (and this is where things turn ugly, or uglier) plays mind games.

Now the scam pushes the limits of what CCP (Eve Online’s parent corporation) allows. And going to mind games, which is basically some sort of humiliation and/or harassment, crosses those limits. So to avoid the Terms of Service, Erotic 1 and his cohorts took the scam out of the game and into online talk (Teamspeak).

And there he and his cohorts proceeded to utterly humiliate the con. Among other things they had him singing songs that emphasized his speech impediment. All the while dangling the hook of returning his property. After about two hours of increasing humiliation and harassment the player snapped, swearing at and threatening Erotic 1 and his team. Yeah, ‘I’ll hunt you down and kill you’ types of threats.

And then as the cherry on top, Erotic 1 posted the whole session on soundcloud for public embarrassment. (Trigger and size warnings. Two and a quarter hours of bullies at play.)

A furor was raised, asking if this was ‘too far’. After some noise (some SERIOUS noise, with huge forum threads), CCP decided to permanently ban Erotic 1.

What saddens me is that roughly 20% of the posts in the thread were defending him. Defending on technicalities and slippery slope defenses and nature of the game defenses and, well, various defenses. What gladdens me is knowing that these people now know that those positions aren’t acceptable.

If you harass and bully someone by way of your Eve Online connection you are violating CCP’s terms of service. Take their in-game money and property, fine. Taunt, maybe. Trash talk, you’re skirting the edge depending on what you say. Act like you’re back in the schoolyard playing ‘keep the ball from Joey’ and ‘Dance monkey Dance’? Even if you took it to the curb outside the schoolyard, say bye-bye. CCP doesn’t want you trolling the yard for more victims.

Once more: Good for CCP.